Interview with

Founder & Teacher,

Is Sexual Identity My Choice? (Episode 357)

The following is a transcript of the audio.

Pastor John, what would you say to a man or to a woman who is considering a sex change operation? These are not amorphous folks, they are clearly and obviously genetically and physically a man or woman, and he/she wants a gender change. What would you say to someone considering transgender option?

Ok. Tony, the first thing I want to say is that anybody listening to this who is about to switch this off saying: Good night. Transgender. That is so irrelevant to me. I don’t need to listen to this today. Give me a minute before you turn this off. Consider this. The cover of Time magazine for June 9, if you haven’t seen it has Laverne Cox, born a boy, now living with a different sexual identification, acting on TV in the orange is the new black as a woman and featured as an admirable person pictured as a woman with a painful story in the hope that we, the readers, would all affirm this way of life. The article and the interview with Laverne are all about transgender experience. Like it or not—this is what I am saying to me and to us—like it or not it is following right behind homosexual behavior in our culture in its aim to be mainstream and celebrated. Not to do so will be, as the interview makes crystal clear, to be seen as hung up with our own sexual insecurities and at worst hateful. So it is relevant, really front burner relevant.

And here, let me give you another couple of scenarios. What will you do, what will you say either clergy or layman if a family visits your church whose 15 year old son attends your youth group wearing a dress, long, curly hair, painted fingernails, shaved legs, lipstick, claiming to be a girl? Are your young people ready for that? Have they been taught anything about that? That will come. And by are they ready I mean do they have a biblical understanding of sexuality that may help them form a sound judgment about that? And do they have a good grasp of grace and truth so that they can have conviction and compassion in those relationships?

One more situation that I think we are all going to face sooner or later. What are you going to say? What will your counsel be to a 40 year old man or woman who comes to you, has just received Christ as Savior, Lord and treasure of their lives and had a sex change surgery 20 years ago and they are now living as a man born a woman or as a woman born a man, what will repentance look like in that situation? So those are the questions that are right in front of us and if people feel like it is not going to happen to me, I am not going to have to deal with this, that is probably naïve. If not you, your children probably will. And so let me try to help a little bit here.

Here is the main question we are facing. Is gender or sexual identity set by a preference of the individual or by a providence of God? Or to put it in another way: Is my sex determined by my decision in my mind or by God’s design in my nature? That is the key question. We live in a day when individual autonomy, personal preference or choice is considered by many to have priority over God’s design. That may be because they don’t believe in God or more often because they don’t believe God has spoken with any kind of governing clarity on an issue. Either way, individual preference outweighs God. The reality of my desires has weight. Most people feel they have weight in my life. God, he doesn’t have any weight. For all practical purposes he is inconsequential for our culture whether he exists or not. Very few people today in our culture are trembling before God even though the creator told us the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. In other words, we can’t even get to first base, we can’t even begin to be wise in sexual identity where there is no trembling before the living God.

So an example of this amazing elevation of personal individual autonomy over God’s designs in nature is the choice that parents are making—yes, this is happening—parents are making today to use drugs to postpone puberty in their children so that their sons and daughters can make their own decisions about whether they want to grow up to be a man or a woman. So my question is: Then how shall we think biblically about these things?

Now I am just going to go to one place in the Bible to begin to lay a foundation that I think is absolutely essential. And it is Romans 1:19-28. And the main thing to notice here is that the Bible draws a parallel between the way nature teaches truth about God and the way nature teaches truth about male and female sexuality. And the point is this: nature is one of God’s methods of revealing what we should prefer, what our choices should be. Preference or choice is guided by God’s design in nature. It is not independent as though you can simply choose your own essence. Whom we should worship is not left to our preferences and who we are sexually is not left to our preferences. Both are dictated by God’s revelation in nature.

So look at the verse, verse 19, for example. What can be known about God is plain because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature have been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So God’s divine nature is revealed in physical, material things in the universe, so much so that verse 20 says: They are without excuse if they exchange the glory of God for the glory of the creature. In other words, it is clear in God’s mind that what the universe, what material, physical universe teaches about God is clear enough about who he is and whom we should worship that we are without excuse if we don’t.

Then—and this is the key thing for the transgender issue—then the text draws the parallel with human sexuality. Just as physical nature reveals the truth about God, so physical nature reveals truth about sexuality identity. Verse 26 goes like this: “Their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature and their men, likewise, gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another.”

So the one thing that I am focusing on here is Paul’s understanding of the role of nature, the material, physical reality of the universe and of our bodies. And what he is saying is that the role nature has to reveal truth about God’s identity as powerful and divine, it also has in revealing our identity as male and female. That is the basic gist of everything I am saying from Romans nine, namely that the role nature has is to reveal truth about God’s identity as powerful and divine and truth about our identity as male and female. And it is so clear that we are without excuse if we don’t see it.

So if a human looks at the world and chooses to worship a creature rather than the creator, he is without excuse. And if a man looks at his own body and chooses to play the part of a woman, or a woman looks at her own body and chooses to play the part of a man, they are without excuse, because in both cases, in divine worship and in human sexuality, God has given nature—cosmological and biological—as the revelation of his will. Humans should worship God. Males should act like men. Females should act like women.

Now back to Laverne Cox for just a moment. He was born a boy and is now trying to live as a woman. He would feel totally opposite from what I just said. In fact, he would be angry for me using the word he.

Here is the quote: “Folks want to believe that genitals and biology are like destiny. All these designations are based on a penis and then vagina and that this supposed to say all these different things about who people are. When you think about it, it is kind of ridiculous. People need to be willing to let go of what they think they know about what it means to be a man and what it means to be a woman, because that doesn’t necessarily mean anything inherently,” close quote.

To which I respond: Well, right. Right. And that is not my argument or Paul’s argument. The issue is not what nature says inherently, but what it says as God’s revelation of his design for male and female. God is the wise, loving, purposeful creator and designer of human life and, as such, he is missing totally from Cox’s interview and, as far as I can tell, from his life. And that will make all the difference.

So this is the foundation that I would lay from Romans one there.

But, Tony, the question... I really haven't even gotten to the question, have I? You asked: Well, what would I say to the person maybe who totally agrees with what I am saying here and is caught in a strong sense of identity and desire that is contrary to their anatomy and what would I say to them. And maybe we can take that up in our next episode. I just wanted to lay a foundation here exegetically in Romans one and set the cultural stage for folks.

Related resources: “Genitalia Are Not Destiny” — But Are They Design?