Interview with

Founder & Teacher, Desiring God

Audio Transcript

Welcome back to the podcast on this Monday. Pastor John, you’ve admitted to us in the past that you carry “a lot of sympathy” with pacifists, citing texts like Matthew 5:38–41, Matthew 10:16, Romans 12:17, 1 Thessalonians 5:15, and 1 Peter 3:9 — saying such texts “should probably have a greater effect on our attitudes than they do,” because even Christians are quick to seek vengeance instead of mercy. “But,” you said, “I can’t go all the way with the Christian pacifist when he tells us that retributive justice should have no place in the Christian life.” That’s a great snapshot of your personal convictions here, from the APJ book on page 235, in the context of those episodes on gun ownership in the home.

Today we return to what was really at the heart of those controversial gun episodes over a decade ago, through a question over whether we should rejoice when God destroys our enemies, a question from a listener named Liz. “My question is this. Are we to celebrate the death of our enemies? In Exodus 15, the Israelites sing a song of adoration to God after he brings them through the Red Sea and allows them to escape the Egyptians. The song begins by praising God’s character and magnifying his power and strength (Exodus 15:1–3), yet it ends by celebrating that the Egyptians have been ‘hurled into the sea’ (Exodus 15:4–10 NIV).

“At the same time, we are called to have compassion for the lost who are far from God (Matthew 9:36–38) and to desire that no one perish but that all come to the knowledge of him (2 Peter 3:9). Please help me understand God’s justice and God’s compassion, and what posture and attitude we should have toward our enemies, and how we can show mercy to them while also praising God for his justice when they get what they deserve: eternal separation from him.”

There are these two clusters of texts in the Bible regarding our enemies. One group describes God’s righteous judgment on them and the joy of God’s people in that judgment. And the other group describes what God requires of us in this fallen age: namely, loving our enemies, blessing those who curse us, doing good to those who hate us, and not rejoicing when calamity comes to our enemy.

Celebrating God’s Judgment

For example, a few instances in each of those clusters: “Moses and the people of Israel sang . . . to the Lord . . . ‘I will sing to the Lord, for he has triumphed gloriously; the horse and his rider he has thrown into the sea’” (Exodus 15:1). So, triumph over the Egyptian army. And the book of Revelation describes the celebration of heaven over God’s destruction of his enemies in the last time:

A great multitude in heaven [cried] out, “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God, for his judgments are true and just; for he has judged the great prostitute who corrupted the earth with her immorality, and has avenged on her the blood of his servants.” (Revelation 19:1–2)

Or Revelation 18:20: “Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you saints and apostles and prophets, for God has given judgment for you against her” — namely, the great prostitute, Rome. And even now, right now as we’re making this recording, the souls of the martyrs under the altar in heaven cry out, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before you will judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” (Revelation 6:10).

So, that’s one cluster of texts: the celebration of God’s justice in bringing judgment upon his enemies.

Reflecting God’s Compassion

Then this other cluster goes like this: “Do not rejoice when your enemy falls, and let not your heart be glad when he stumbles, lest the Lord see it and be displeased, and turn away his anger from him.” That’s Proverbs 24:17–18. In other words, this is not an issue of one thing being excused in the Old Testament and forbidden in the New Testament — like, vengeance is okay on your adversary in the Old Testament, but it’s not okay in the New Testament. No, these are Old Testament quotes right now. “He who is glad at calamity will not go unpunished” (Proverbs 17:5). Or Job says in Job 31:29, “If I have rejoiced at the ruin of him who hated me, or exulted when evil overtook him, [I would be guilty].”

“Our joy in the victory of God is, in some way, joy in the demise of our adversaries.”

And then you get the New Testament. We all know the words of Jesus: “I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you” (Luke 6:27–28). And that teaching carries right through the New Testament. First Thessalonians 5:15: “See that no one repays anyone evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to everyone.” Same thing in 1 Peter 3:9 and Romans 12:17. And maybe the most significant passage on not taking vengeance is Romans 12:19–20: “Never avenge yourselves, but leave it to the wrath of God, for it is written, ‘Vengeance is mine, I will repay, says the Lord.’ To the contrary, ‘if your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.’”

The question, then, is this: How shall we take both of these clusters of biblical teachings seriously and live out their implications in our lives? There are several answers to that question, and I’m just going to give one. I think it’s the most important, at least in my reckoning, and it goes like this.

Making the Distinction

There is a difference between rejoicing over God’s righteous action in dealing with his and our enemies, and a self-exalting pleasure in seeing our personal adversaries suffer. There’s a difference. Charles Bridges, who wrote a good commentary on Proverbs, comments on Israel’s rejoicing over the destruction of Egypt’s armies like this. He says, “How different is this sublime sympathy in the triumph of the Church, from the malignant joy of private revenge!” (469).

Indeed, I agree with that, but I would add, this is not a distinction that in experience is easy to maintain. Our gladness in the vindication of God’s glory and justice is not always easy to distinguish from our gladness in the personal calamity of our adversaries. And the reason it’s not is because our adversary really does finally come into calamity in the righteous judgment of God. So, our joy in the victory of God is, in some way, joy in the demise of our adversaries.

When the saints in heaven cry out, “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God” (Revelation 19:1), they know that this includes the utter destruction of the great harlot and her city and all those people in it who hated Christians. But the fact that we find it difficult to make that distinction in our minds and hearts, the distinction between gladness in God’s righteous vindication and gladness in our personal vendetta over the suffering of our adversaries — the fact that that’s difficult doesn’t mean the distinction doesn’t exist. It does.

Should We Rejoice at the Cross?

So, let me try an analogy. (This helped me as I was pondering afresh about this yesterday.) Let me try an analogy and see if it helps you like it does me.

Consider the crucifixion of Jesus. On the one hand, this was the vindication of the righteousness of God in passing over the sins of others, because it showed that God does not sweep sin under the rug and does not ignore the defamation of his glory. So, the cross is a glorious display of God’s righteousness and mercy. On the other hand, it is an absolutely revolting experience of exquisite suffering, with spikes being driven through hands and feet, sword in the side, thorns in the forehead, slaps on the cheeks, spit on the face, Jesus enduring impossible agony, and the spiritual weight of the world causing Jesus to cry out, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46). So, physically and spiritually, it is as horrible as it gets.

My question is, Should we rejoice over the death of Jesus? And surely the answer is yes when we view the cross from one angle and no when we view the cross from another angle. As the most glorious act of love from the Father and the Son and a perfect vindication of God’s righteousness, the cross should bring forth from us the greatest rejoicing. In fact, it does. Every Sunday in my church, we’re just on our tiptoes praising God for the cross. Every Sunday, that’s what we do. But as an act of torture and suffering considered in itself, surely we should weep for Jesus and for ourselves.

So, I think, in a similar way, we should rejoice over God’s judgments, including the justice of hell. And when we contemplate the misery of the lost considered only as suffering, we should weep and pray and strive to save as many as we can.